[mountainwiccan]

Just wondering how it actually works. If someones wants to buy your goods and says they will pay by W.U how does the scam work if you do not post out the goods before you get the money. I am wondering as a Nigerian has contacted me to buy something I'm selling. I know it's a scam. He has given me an address to post it to so a courier won't be collecting it...

I just don't see how you can be de-frauded if you don't send out the goods before you get the money...?

In any event I am not going to go ahead with the transaction but I am going to play with the guy for a while and let him think that I am going to... serves him right!!

P.S This is how I know it is a scam... Firstly the guy said he was in London on business , then he said he was in France, then he said he needed the womens' goods I'm selling for his son, then he said he wanted me to post them to an associate in Nigeria!!! TWAT

[P.I.M.P]

[sm0ke]

There are instances where legitemate buyers want to pay via w.u or cheque etc,

obviously from what this guy has said, he aint no legitemate buyer, but to avoid loosing money if you do accept a cheque from them - wait for 28 days, the clearing process in British banks is 4 days, most will lloyds tsb will credit your account with the money the same day but will not make the funds available for a further 4 - 5 working days.

luckily 90% of the time buyers dont read the small print, so just add a note to all your sales that any cheques received for payment will be subject to a 28 day waiting period prior to goods being despatched / money being paid to any courier - this gives the banks time to verify the funding with the buyers bank and gives you the peace of mind that your not loosing anything because your being careful

having said that - you can normally tell from the correspondence if the buyer is legit or not - good luck with winding him up.

[BigSteveLondon]

I was gonna say the exact same shit.
Don't send the goods until at least 10days. If you put a clearing date on your sale, then they have no reason to try you. But also it's clear they have to wait a certain time for cheques so they can't hassle you. If they want it quicker you'll take CASH via Western Union, whiuch YOU collect.

1

[weebber]

Yeah but mountainwiccan asked about Western Union.
If someone pays via Western Union, when I go to, say, the Post Office, I get CASH, not cheque... right?

If this happens, then there is no way to be fooled... Or am I missing something?
Can it the fact we give our address to someone who wants to pay via Western Union a reason for worrying?
Also, I think someone was trying to scam me a couple of days ago. It was to Nigeria as well but I was asked about my PayPal address. I smelled fraud so I didn't, but I can be safe with Paypal and Western Union in CASH, right?

[sm0ke]

Not safe with any payment method really mate, even from people in this country.

A couple of years back when the scams were relativeley new and people blissfully unaware of them, A lot of people based in supposedly african countries offered payment via western union and requested your home address.

Once they had that they could be at your door robbing you blind, harming you, your friends and family - You have to proove this address when claiming the money via western union at whih point they are in your house.

Paypal has its scammers too - the great database outage of 2004 - left a lot of people unable to trust paypal due to the mistakes continually affecting them.

The scammers now use a variety of paypal methods - non legit emails advsing payment has been sent. I had a guy do this so i checked the paypal account, advised him to stop fucking me around and he sent another email - looked like a paypal mail but saying that paypal will be keeping the funds in a safe account until i provide a tracking number for the goods - suffice to say this is not how paypal works.

I sent a tracking number for an item i posted elsewhere, he seemed happy with it, heard from him a week later to say not arrived - i told him its because the tracking number was for another parcel going to the UK - and i wasn suprised the cash had not been transferrd on receipt of said tracking number.

Ensure you are safe:

verify the email address
enter into a conversation with the buyer - always keep good comms
Never meet in private
if the items small enuff - meet in a cafe / bar
Never ever send any gods before the cold hard cash is in your mitts -
28 days ffor cheques to clear, dont accept w.u
Be vigilant, most scammers make mistakes in the first few mails.

[mike1451]

I am looking for advice surrounding Western Union Scams. I am not sure if I am being conned. This will be long but please bear with me ........I went onto google to ask about western union scams and it threw up a forum page from gumtree on Friday night. the subject is the same but peoples messages were all about exchanging goods etc. My case is a little different ........I am currently going through a divorce...feeling a little lost and alone etc. In June I was on a dating website and I recieved mail from a woman who said she was interested in my profile etc. I responded and we got very friendly and began to exchange e-mails on a more friendly basis and it felt like we might be suited. Her story affected me and I offered to help. She told me she was an African American,residing in Wetherby Yorkshire but currently on leave in Africa looking after a sick father who also needed a heart operation. She says she is on long term leave from her employer to tend to her Dad. I am not employed and am medically retired and nearly 56yrs old,an ordinary but honest guy.She asked me If I could help her out financially as her stay in Africa was now going to be longer as her father needed a heart operation. I told her I could'nt. She then arranged with her employer to send me some money as she felt She could trust me and that I would look after her money and send it to her in stages through Western Union transfers. I have never used W.U. and have no knowledge of them. First I get an e-mail from her employer asking me to verify who I am and confirm my postal address ( although my house is on the market due to my Divorce ) She sent me another e-mail to say her employer would issue a cheque to me...this was about 3 weeks ago. On Frday last 18th August 7 cheques arrived....I took them to the bank and opened a new account and it all seemed fine.I have been acting in all Innocence thinking I am doing something to help another person until somebody said over the weekend it smacks of money Laundering. The 7 cheques were all made out to me and were all Alliance & Leicester Cheques each made out for £909.66 giving a grand total of £6,367.62. They were deposited on Friday and are awaiting clearance She wants me to send a western union transfer to the value of £1500 and asked If I will also send £2000 to the Doctor who has given her father the previously mentioned Heart operation. I began to worry when friends responded after I told them the address she gave me was in Nigeria (I assumed it to be her fathers address) then tales of Nigeria being a haven for conning people into parting with money. However I though yes but it is her own money so where's the problem? Then a friend told if I try and withdraw from this new Account,I could find myself out of Pocket if they are from an unsound source. I want some advice but am also aware this might be genuine and would'nt like to put my relationship with this person at risk if it is Genuine.I sent her an e-mail on Saturday asking her why ask me to handle her cheques when her emloyer could have done it for her. She said he is out of the Country and she felt I was the only person she could trust. Now I am worried in case I am getting involved in something that is not what it seems...She says she hopes to return from Nigeria to the UK at the end of September, wanting to meet her at Manchester International Airport. Anybody got any suggestions....I am quite worried now. The bank seemed ok but I am beginning to ask myself questions about it all and why 7 cheques ? why not a single cheque ?Should I continue to stay in contact with her? should I go back to the Bank and tell them my story.?? So far the cheques only went in on Friday and will be awaiting clearance. Please advise anybody and thanx for your time Mike

[Bluey]

Scam artists do target dating websites and accommodation sites as well as the more obvious area when it comes to consumer goods. Fact is that the actual people behind dating sites posing as a beautiful woman are often teenage boys working in internet cafes in Legos.

http://www.data-wales.co.uk/nigerian_chat.htm

Google the topic of 419 scams (that's the reference to the penal code it covers) to get a full picture of just how widespread and ingenious they are.

The problem with some cheque deposits is that can take quite a long time to determine if they are fraudulent so if you transfer legitimate (real)funds from your own bank account believing that potentially bogus deposits will cover it, you could end up out of pocket.

It might be genuine but it is probably not - they are effective scams because they are so convincing and because you feel as if you've built up a trusting relationship.

Of course, she might return to the UK, but she probably won't as she is probably a He and He is laughing about you to all his friends calling you a 'Mugu' (fool).

Contact your local police. Don't send the money - those bogus cheques will not clear. You will be put under pressure with more and more sorry tales but they will be fibs.

[Bluey]

http://www.met.police.uk/fraudalert/419.htm

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5245742.stm


http://technology.guardian.co.uk/weekly/story/0,16376,1637557,00.html

[Bluey]

And stop reading any emails from your 'girlfriend' in the meantime.

If you've given out your phone number, screen all your calls to screen out anyone apart from friends and family.

Basically, as the team behind your lonely hearts think they are very close to bagging £1500, they will ramp up the pressure and try to speed up this payment transfer so their false cheques don't bounce (or genuine but laundered cheques but genuine is unlikely).

Your friend is right - you've been exploited - but don't feel guilty or bad - these people are very skilled and they caught you at a low ebb.

[BigSteveLondon]

I will say this as clearly as i can.

THIS IS A 419 SCAM!

The UK banking system has been faulty for years in this country & this is a perfect example why.
What this lady (and her team) need you to do now is withdraw the funds once the banks 5 or 6 day clearance process is up. The bank will say (and also show in your account) you have these funds available. BUT, and this is the BIG BUT, they actually can take anything up to 3months or more to clear a cheque, which means once these checks are returned to Alliance & Leicester (or whomever you bank with), they will say that YOU owe them the funds as you are responsible for depositing them. You will then try and contact your Nigerian friend who will have either disappeared, or reply with a lovely email about how your such a fool.

I repeat, this lady will insist on you paying her soon. Let her wait, saying that the bank have some suspicians and want 2weeks or more to verify the cheques. See what she has to say then hehehehe.
You'll find that they will bounce. i'd also tell the bank what you have just read and ASK them to monitor the cheques closely for you. That way you've been totally upfront from the begining.

Regards
Steve

[Bluey]

"I sent her an e-mail on Saturday asking her why ask me to handle her cheques when her emloyer could have done it for her. She said he is out of the Country and she felt I was the only person she could trust."

It sounds plausible yet Western Union services are available globally so if she really wanted to get funds to her sick father, she could have used them!!

[Nell]

[color=blue][/color]

Mike

Sounds like you've been had my friend! You worry you might be wrong and your lady friend is genuine, which will possibly mess up your chance of happiness with her?

Life is so much easier for us women. We get a gut feeling that "something" isn't quite right (and we are usually right), and we do a u turn. You've had an "uncomfortable feeling" about what she has asked you to do. Go with that gut feeling Mike. You will feel bad if your wrong, but you'll feel even worse if your right.

Youv'e had some good advice from several people. Go to the bank. Ask to speak to the manager. Tell him what you think is happening, then say "I am just informing you before going to the police with the matter". He will have to take it seriously, and you will not be held responsible. You acted in good faith, and now your suspicions have been raised, you have informed the bank and the police.

If your wrong your wrong, if your right you will have saved yourself from getting into a real mess. Hope this works out ok for you.

[mike1451]

I would just like to say thanks to BigSteveLondon, Bluey and Nell for your attentions to my post on 21 August. Thanks to bluey for all the links you gave me to read into....very useful. Also thanks to Nell for your practical suggestions. I will give more feedback to you all once I have spoken to my bank manager. All your comments were taken seriously and I am extremely grateful and continue to be dissillusioned by these Women who don't exist. Sad but at least I will not be paying thousands out for false cheques..........Mike1451

[Nell]

Mike I'm glad your taking the advice seriously. Your doing the right thing. However it does concern me a little to hear "the sadness in your voice" as you contemplate that you've been had by another of those women who don't exist.The world is full of sick people, you are lucky you came from this experience reasonably unscathed. It could have been so much worse.
So Mike, put it behind you, and get out there and live. Life is too short to waste your breathe on these lowlifes.
Instead of thinking of what could have been, count your blessings.
You woke up this morning? Not everybody was that blessed. You couldn't see the stars because you have a roof over your head! Not everbody is that blessed. You could wash/shower/bathe in the comfort of your own home because you have running water, not everybody is that blessed. You had or could have had food before you went to work, not everybody is that blessed. Get the picture?
Nell

[mike1451]

[Nell]

Ain't nothing wrong with ageing Hippies!
Good to hear your awareness with the plight of those less fortunate. I didn't think the world was aware of it at all. So I was wrong. Apologies! I wasn't insinuating you were selfsentered by the way. I was just helping "a fellow traveller" see that no matter how bad things get, there is always someone worse off, and more importantly it's not what happens to us in life, it's how we deal with it!!!
When life pulls the rug from under you. it can make you bitter or better. When I get the rug pulled out from under me I choose to let it make me a better person. Take this experience for what it is, a chance to grow as a human being. A day older, a day wiser. Aging Hippy or not.
Nell

[mike1451]

[Nell]

I wasn't sure wether to laugh or cry reading your discription of me as someone with "a worldly view". As a Christian it is something we try to avoid having,ha,ha. But I get your drift.

If your looking for "people" to help you back up off the floor you'll find they tire out quickly of picking people up off the floor. Hence you hear people say "when I was down and out I found out who my real friends where." I was blessed enough to have my faith to turn to when the going got tough. We have a saying in Christian circles "when the going gets tough, the tough get praying"! It may seem like a crutch to some, but I don't have a problem with admitting my experience crippled me, and what does a cripple need?, crutches!!! And I hung on to mine for dear life.

I'm glad you recognise the pittfall of bitterness. I read a quote this morning in my "quiet time" (my time of reflection, my only chance in a busy day to thank the Lord for all He has done for me, and He has done much). The quote said "The only place bitterness can live is in our memory. The only power it can over us, is the power we give it". As you have already realized this, this is for others reading this piece.

I'm afraid I'm not a fan of Reiki as it is connected to new age thinking, and the powers "channelled" there are not from the source I draw from.

Divorce is always messy. When I hear of "an amicable divorce" or "we parted as friends" I have to laugh. Divorce is painful. I don't know anyone who has come through it unscathed, including myself, it's a breakdown of an institution ordained and blessed by the Creator Himself. Anyone who proffesses to have come from it unscathed is fooling themselves.

I feel I need to flag up an issue which seems to be arising in some of the comments made over your plight, that Nigeria is ripe with people waiting to rip you off. Wake up world. The world is waiting to rip you off. Nigerians are like any other people, there are good ones and there are bad ones. Like Englishmen, Scandinavians, Asians..... you get my drift. The church I'm part of in London is multinational (85 different nations make up my church). Are they all "saints?", no! not this side of Heaven. Even Christians get it wrong. When we do we ask for forgivness, and continue to believe that the world can be a better place, if we all do our part.

In regards to staying in touch Mike, I think this is the best way. I'll be off in a few weeks time "on a mission" to the Philippines. Won't be back untill the New year. Don't know when I'll have time or if I'll have opportunity to hook up with the internet, so I wouldn't be reliable as "a friend to help pick you up off the floor".

I pray you get yourself sorted in regard to W U, your divorce, and your future. That's the one thing I don't fret about anymore, my future because I know who holds my future, and it couldn't be in safer hands.
Nell.
[b][/b]

[Nell]

I wasn't sure wether to laugh or cry reading your discription of me as someone with "a worldly view". As a Christian it is something we try to avoid having,ha,ha. But I get your drift.

If your looking for "people" to help you back up off the floor you'll find they tire out quickly of picking people up off the floor. Hence you hear people say "when I was down and out I found out who my real friends where." I was blessed enough to have my faith to turn to when the going got tough. We have a saying in Christian circles "when the going gets tough, the tough get praying"! It may seem like a crutch to some, but I don't have a problem with admitting my experience crippled me, and what does a cripple need?, crutches!!! And I hung on to mine for dear life.

I'm glad you recognise the pittfall of bitterness. I read a quote this morning in my "quiet time" (my time of reflection, my only chance in a busy day to thank the Lord for all He has done for me, and He has done much). The quote said "The only place bitterness can live is in our memory. The only power it can over us, is the power we give it". As you have already realized this, this is for others reading this piece.

I'm afraid I'm not a fan of Reiki as it is connected to new age thinking, and the powers "channelled" there are not from the source I draw from.

Divorce is always messy. When I hear of "an amicable divorce" or "we parted as friends" I have to laugh. Divorce is painful. I don't know anyone who has come through it unscathed, including myself, it's a breakdown of an institution ordained and blessed by the Creator Himself. Anyone who proffesses to have come from it unscathed is fooling themselves.

I feel I need to flag up an issue which seems to be arising in some of the comments made over your plight, that Nigeria is ripe with people waiting to rip you off. Wake up world. The world is waiting to rip you off. Nigerians are like any other people, there are good ones and there are bad ones. Like Englishmen, Scandinavians, Asians..... you get my drift. The church I'm part of in London is multinational (85 different nations make up my church). Are they all "saints?", no! not this side of Heaven. Even Christians get it wrong. When we do we ask for forgivness, and continue to believe that the world can be a better place, if we all do our part.

In regards to staying in touch Mike, I think this is the best way. I'll be off in a few weeks time "on a mission" to the Philippines. Won't be back untill the New year. Don't know when I'll have time or if I'll have opportunity to hook up with the internet, so I wouldn't be reliable as "a friend to help pick you up off the floor".

I pray you get yourself sorted in regard to W U, your divorce, and your future. That's the one thing I don't fret about anymore, my future because I know who holds my future, and it couldn't be in safer hands.
Nell.
[b][/b]

[mike1451]

Well Nell I don't see what difference there is in feeling good about Reiki as opposed to christianity. New age is a rubbish suggestion Reiki is in fact a lot older than you give credit. It is in fact an ancient eastern way of philosophy from Japan & China and unlike Christianity it has no blood on its consience.Reiki is a healing process, Christianity has a disgraceful history preaching with a bias to pillaging and rape in order to create sobordination in countries where people had little knowledge of the outside world. I have visited the Phillipines there you will see the illiteracy and prostitution that is created from a mafia style of of corruption. Just like Rio & Mexico. Christianity is in the heart of all these people. Next year is the jewish Millenium and God told his followers that the world will end in 2007 through the book of Armaggeddon. I'd like to see If Christianity will save outr pitiful souls then..I think not. at least there is a force and a immediate physical reaction to meditation and inner contentment from Reiki that will help to face up to the end wether it is next year or not. Yes you are right about Divorce there is no such thing as an amicable resolution. I thank you for your comments and hope you visit the phillys with more than an open mind. Something to consider too is that God has made it clear to anybody who cares .....that you do not need to enter the house of God to have belief in him and no amount of prayers will put food into the mouths of millions of stranded African children because of Aids and loss of parents in the thousands.2 loaves and 5 fishes is a fairy tale. Gods way is beyond the bible we are ignorant to his power. We have been misled for thousands of years by our own people.There are far greater forces at work. Scientifically we are already destroying the planet. We are playing into the hands of god he will make us suffer for his son and our sins with self destruction...Have a safe journey and may god protect you on your travels ....Mike

[Nell]

Well I obviously touched a raw nerve there Mike! Didn't mean to offend you.

Christianity isn't a feel good factor. It's a personal relationship with the Creator of the universe. It's what you were created for Mike to have fellowship with God! A personal and awesome relationship with someone who loves you so much He made a get out clause for when you mess up. Why? Because he couldn't bare the thought of spending eternity without you!

I am aware that Reiki began in Tibet thousand years ago, that it was rediscovered in the 1800's by Dr Mikao Usui. The two principal forms being the Usui system of natural healing, and the Radience technique. I also am aware that it was studied in the Sankritt language which is from 500 BC. It was "reinvented" in the mid 70's by the New Age movement. I'm also aware that the Old Testament in the bible is older.

I would agree with you that much harm has been done in the name of Christianity, But God's word tells us not everyone who calls themselves a Christian, is a Christian. Just like hanging around in a garage doesn't make you a car! Those people who have done dreadful things in the name of Christianity will one day have to answer to God. All I can say is heaven help them.

Can I say that Christianity isn't at the heart of the Philippines, Rio or Mexico. Religion is. That's a different ball game alltogether. Nothing to do with God! All to do with man. It's easy to slate the Christians who go into to these countries to try to eleviate the suffering. But I don't see the Reiki healers going down to lay hands on the sick, and yet they profess to have healing powers?

By the way it was 5 loaves, two fish, 5000 men plus women and children and there were 12 baskets of crumbs left over. You don't believe it, why would you not percieve that the God who created all things would have no problem creating more food to meet the needs of the people. He always has and He always will. He has created enough food to feed every individual in the world. It's man who won't share it. So why doesn't He make people share? He made us all aware of right and wrong, and gave us free will to choose. We need to stop blaming Him for our mess!

Where does it say in the bible the world is coming to an end in 2007? In my bible it says "but of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels, but my Father only". And on that day NOTHING will save you not Religion, nor Christianity, ONLY a personal relationship with God through his son Jesus Christ. No matter how much "Reiki helps you meet the day", it won't save your soul! It's like having toothache, pain killers may dull the pain, but it doesn't alter the fact that sooner or later you will have to face the consequences!

You are of course right Mike, you don't have to go to church to have a faith in God. You can in the quietness of your home ask God to forgive you your wrong doings, and He is true to his word. He will forgive you! Church is where you go to be "fed",(taught the word of God) and to be with fellow believers. Again your right God is way beyond the bible, and we are ignorant of His power, but also of His grace and mercy.

We are not "playing into His hands. He has no need to seek revenge for His son. You see Jesus gave up his life of His own free will. Nobody took it. It was a freewill gesture so that you could have eternal life. It's yours for the asking!

In regards to my trip to the Philippines, I'm not just going with an open mind. I've already done my homework, I know why I'm going there. A woman once stood on the beach picking up star fish, and one by one she threw them back into the water. A passerby stopped and said "why bother? that won't make much difference". She kept on picking them up one at a time, throwing them into the water. Then calmly she said, with a starfish in her hand "no, but it will make a difference to this one". That's me, I may not be able to do much, but I'll do what I can!
Nell

[mike1451]

this is a huge thankyou to those who read my letter regarding a person claiming to want ME ! ha
she or he screwed up my emotions when I'm not having a great time in life to start with so I feel I was caught off gaurd. The thing is I did'nt have to involve the police thru going to the bank straight away. thier Fraud section traced the cheques back to Holland and they proved to be fake and I am not going to find myself owing the bank £6000 plus. So I owe you a huge sincere thankyou to big steve,Nell and you bluey who offered me practical options to read about on the subject of fraud. I have pasted those links into my browswer to send out to everyone I know. the internet is just like realityit has good and bad in it .....I just got a scratch off the badside. The thing that finally convinced me was that the bastard gave me her/ his ? home address...I uused a website called capscan.com where you can do a free demo on verifying an address .....well the address checked out so I chatted to the person and asked who was looking after the house during thier long absence in Nigeria........a houseboy called philip....they said that if I wanted to introduce myself I could ring them on her mobile which she said she'd left behind in the UK. I did this a guy answered ....he'd been contacted before I rang cos he said he was expecting my call ! this took 5 mins he claimed he was in an Internet cafe in Harrogate so less than 100 miles from Manchester where I am and the call cost me £7:00 !!! I was in Las Vegas earlier this year on holiday......... calls from there cost me 35pence !! I believe the mobile I was ringing was in Lagos Island,Nigeria but I cant prove it. it is over now for me but there should be policing on the net against this eventually somebody will be ruined and commit suicide and that's paramount to murder in my mind. you were my saviours all 3 of you and I am so glad that there are some decent people still.

[Nell]

Hi Mike

Glad to hear you got things sorted. As this was my first time taking part in a forum discussion I'm glad it was of some help.

I decided to checkout other scams posted. I was amazed at how much of it is going on. The thing that hit me was that there seems to be a "standard" letter. Their English is appalling. And they seem overly eager to make a transaction. You can spot them a mile off. It's been stated before, "if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is"!

I was the target of a paypal scam. My son-in-law uses paypal when buying on ebay. I was there when he recieved an email to say "there was a problem on his paypal account, if he didn't ring before a certain time with confirmation of his details they would have to freeze his account", they then went on to ask for banking details and a photocopy of his passport and drivers licence to be faxed to the number on the screen. Obviously he got in touch with paypal, who told him it was a scam.
When I got back to London I recieved a similar email. Which I printed off and took to the police. I don't have a paypal account!!!

Life is full of crooks who want to rip you off. You just need to be aware!

Nell

[Cas52]

mountainwiccan, I have applied for one of these jobs., and what they do is steal money from someone else's account and put it into an account you have opened and then get you to send it via W/U or Money Order to someone else in a different country. I looked into it, my husband and I went over it for 5 days and we thought it looks good, not realising what they where doing. I got caught for fraud, my bank account was frozen and they gave the money back to who it belonged. There is no way we thought it was spam, we printed everthing out for the bank and I even told them what it was for. Anyway my point is DON'T Get Involved. They ARE FRAUD and you are the one that gets into trouble, because there is no record of them being involved. But am I glad it is over and they are still sending me emails. Even after we contacted them and asked them not to.