[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

People go to visit Red. They come away with a huge debt. They usually do not qualify. The ones who take out the loan then have an even larger debt with no means to pay it off.

Why do they sign up?

What is said to them at those meetings to get them to sign up?

People can make their own minds up about that but I am fairly sure that AntiLVG and yourself won't exactly be splitting the vote down the middle. Your ongoing reluctance to agree that people should be given even basic information about qualification and all it entails and AntiLVG's perfectly plausible description of what happens to those people who go along to a presentation puts you effectively out of the game.

Are you a reliable source of information?

Are you believable?

Does your take on this whole thing ring true?

Why is it that every one who reads your posts thinks that you are in some way linked to Red?

Could it be your lack of balance and your refusal to accept even basic logic?

Could it be your refusal to accept that even where there is strong evidence of 'flexible morality' within the DIT industry as a whole you almost singlehandedly cling to the idea that Red can do no wrong?

Make your own minds up everyone.

That didn't take long!

Here's a piece from the UKADI website.

[Wide Dave]

And for anyone who is thinking of becoming a driving instructor, have a look at the following websites before you do anything else;

http://www.squidoo.com/driving_instructors

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnhkyLYbqIY

http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/drivertrainers/becomingadrivinginstructor/becomingadrivinginstructor.htm

Whatever you do, don't go to the following site, the guy wants £9.95 for a 16 page 'report' that is more than adequately covered on the squidoo website above;

http://www.drivinginstructortraininginfo.com/

Regards,

Dave.

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

If people take out ANY loan they come away IN DEBT

I suppose it is only Red trainees who take out loans to finance the inevitable several thousand pounds it costs to become an ADI?

Dave, a fact is a fact. If I say "it is Saturday", there may well be people who don't belive me - but the fact remains that I am right, and they are just idiots. Get my drift on that one?

It's exactly the same here.

Your very amateur attempts to play on words are not going to shake any foundations

Erm. Exactly what point are you trying to extract from your latest random cut-and-paste? What factual information is contained within? None, Dave

But what biased and amateur-smug content does it have? Lots. It's just another Krazy Lander having a dig without understanding a thing. Much the same as you, really - just cut, paste, and sit there as if you just invented space travel or something

It's quite embarrassing how you keep making pointless 'statements' via someone else's stupidity, and then sit there as if you just proved something important

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

Just recently you added this little gem to the end of one of your posts;

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

So if LDC are being so upfront about what's involved and genuinely set out the relevant facts about qualification why would anyone want to go with Red?

You could look at the rest of the opposition as well. Why not think about the Big Sausage Machine? Look at their costs and the flexibility of their payment schemes compared to Red's £3,800.00 full upfront costs. Add in the fact that BSM also display a link to the DSA website and you start to think that maybe there is something wrong with Red's approach of 'Don't tell them the price until they get to the presentation' and even then just give them the sales pitch and not the full facts according to AntiLVG.

Sensible answer now, who would you go with?

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

While I'm at it I think it might be a good idea to detail just what can happen to a keen but new ADI when he is exposed to market forces. This one you will like because it doesn't slag Red off too much but it is a good example of why people should not expect too much from a 'guaranteed position' promise.

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Dave. your new cut-and-paste KIM says she was "ripped off". Is that all the info you need to pass the death sentence?

I was 100% right about LDC, Dave. I said "in yesterday's press" - NOT "on their website".

Can you see how those two groups of words are different, Dave? Let me help: one says "yesterday's press". That means IN THE NEWSPAPERS. These are big papery things you buy from the newsagent - they tend to have a lot of words and pictures in them. You may have bought some chips in one.

The other one says "their website". A website is a new-fangled thing you use a computer to look at. Can you see how these are not the same thing, now, Dave?

So like I said, LDC's NEWSPAPER ad was virtually identical to Red's. It didn't have that information you so keenly desire - anyone would have had to go and look it up if they wanted it, so stop playing stupid games (yes, I know it's hard for you, but try)

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Why are you trying to lecture me about how hard it is to become an instructor?

Go and have a look at page 1 or 2 of this thread, and look where I came in on it

For God's sake work out what your precise position on this is and stand bloody still so we can keep an eye on you You're all over the place and one minute you're slagging off Red, the next you want to like them, then you are anti-this profession, then anti-any driving school, then bestest buddies with LDC. Get a grip, man

Franchise companies have always worked like this and there have always been people apparently caught out by them when they wanted to leave. I have seen posts on forums about this for years and years.

Let's just look at the mistakes heldefender made (or possibly made, as he is economical with the information in some areas)

1. Going solo immediately after qualifying - greedy and suicidal for 99% of all new ADIs.

2. He wanted 30 hours (which is a hell of a lot to rely on for someone who is self-employed)but what hours and days was he prepared to work?

3. He was told "not to pay". If he'd have gone to see a solicito immediately he wouldn't have had half the hassle because those contracts are often not worth the paper they are written on, and he's likely have been told much the same and the case closed without further grief.

4. He says he was a fool. Yes, he was. He signed a contract - it seems this profession attracts the kind of primate which likes to sign things, then back out of them later, thus showing it doesn't have a clue what it is getting itself into.

5. He did nothing (or very little). He just sat on it, no doubt blaming everyone else. Big mistake.

6. His predicament has nothing at all to do with TIC. He is trying to blame it on anyone except himself.

7. This is not uncommon, but neither is it the norm - I just KNOW you are going to have problems with that statement, Dave. It's all or nothing with you, isn't it?

People who qualify often get greedy. "Yes, if I set up on my own I will have all that lovely money to myself. Bwa-ha-ha". All they hear is the hype and they don't have anything like the right kind of head on their shoulders to do this job.

Are you going to tell heldefender he shouldn't have qualified because he doesn't have what it takes?

The only way I can see you getting your own way out of this is if YOU decide who can train and who can't, if YOU decide who can trade and who can't, and so on.

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Worth pointing out that your buddy who published the Squidoo stuff runs her own franchise.

This makes it hard for her to be totally objective and businesslike - she has to tout her own side of things, and naturally not be seen to push the competition. She makes an admirable attempt at not dismissing outright going with a large national franchise or a successful local one (of which most are "in growth" so success is relative), but the undercurrent is there, especially if you read her posts on other forums.

Thing is, though, how do you know her franchise is any better or any worse than the one heldefender joined? How do you know heldefender's wasn't servicing lots of happy ADIs? You know none of these things: you just ASSUME THE WORST, as is your wont.

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

You've made some good points about heldefender. My point in posting that piece was that any guarantee of 'a position' needs to be taken with a pinch of salt. This is one of the selling points used by so many DIT companies and it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to rely on that as a reason to buy a course. Some franchises are beneficial to the company and the instructor and some are a bit more one-sided.

That whole series of posts and all the cut and pastes in them are there to make several points within the general idea that people should think extremely carefully before making the jump and doing their research;

Is the company pushing me to buy a course because I'm perfect for the job or because I've got access to cash/credit?

Can I rely on anything they say/Will they put their 'promises' in writing?

Is a 'guaranteed position' promise worth anything at all?

Is the company going to train me properly once they have all my money and where is their incentive to do so?

Is there a better option such as 'Pay as you go' or payment per module?

Is there a cheaper option such as the BSM option I posted or possibly a local instructor trainer with a decent reputation?

Are other companies more upfront with basic information about the qualification process and if so, why are some more straightforward than others?

Is life as a newly badged ADI a bowl of cherries and is there actually a shortage of instructors nationwide or locally?

All of these points and more are covered by what is in those posts. That is the point and that is what I'm interested in, letting people who've got as far as this forum know that they don't have to sign up with the first company that comes along.

I just can't work out why it is that you seem to want ordinary people with NO KNOWLEDGE of this industry to go against all logic and sign up with a company that takes a FULL FEE UP FRONT for a VERY EXPENSIVE course that has NO GUARANTEE of success, especially when that company has a QUESTIONABLE CUSTOMER SERVICE RECORD and appears to have been set up not to provide employment for it's willing customers but to provide training courses for a tiny minority of those customers KNOWING that the VAST MAJORITY of their customers WILL NOT GET NEAR QUALIFICATION and therefore WILL NOT REQUIRE OR BE ABLE TO TAKE ALL THE TRAINING THEY THINK THEY ARE PAYING FOR. I say 'think they are paying for' because WHAT THEY ARE ACTUALLY PAYING FOR IS A RAFT OF PRESS AND TV ADVERTISING.

When it is readily apparent that the majority of their customers will gain NO SIGNIFICANT BENEFIT from their association with this company and will, because of the nature of the contract and the qualification process combined come out of it all with a LARGE HOLE in their bank balance and for some the feeling of EMBARRASSMENT that happens when you feel that you have been taken for a complete SUCKER then I just cannot understand your position.

All I want is for these people to be given honest, upfront information.

YOU DON'T. WHY NOT?

Regards,

Dave.

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

I've checked out the 'views' column on the index page over the last couple of days. I don't know what it's like during the week but over the last two days we've got something like 600 views. I wonder how many of those people are thinking of signing up for a course?

So if 10% are thinking of signing up and have decided against it, that could mean 60 x £3,800.00p = £228,000.00p less debt over the last two days.

It also means that in future there will be 60 fewer potential recruits for Facebook's AntiRed group.

That should cheer you up!

Shouldn't it?

Regards,

Dave.

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

The guarantee of "a postiion" needs to be taken for what it is.

Taking it with a "pinch of salt" implies it is wrong - it isn't. Assuming it means "£30k guaranteed" is absolutely bloody stupid - yet we know that's how some see it.

Yes, people should do the research. The information is there if they want it - no matter who they sign up with for training. But they don't, and that will always be an issue.

I don't think things should change just because of these idiots. You think it should.

I had no knowledge of this industry, and yet I made all the right choices by finding answers to the right questions. Why should the system change just to accommodate the lowest common denominator when it comes to intelligence? It shouldn't.

If you fail an exam - any exam - it seems natural for some people to seek blame outside themselves (pupils failing tests are a good example: it's usually the examiner - too nasty, too quiet, too friendly, writing in his book, opening the window, male instead of female, etc.)

These people have information available to them - if they look for it. Just like it was there for me when I started out. Signing up on the way home on a whim is hardly the action of someone who would look things up no matter how obvious the info was.

There is no way a vendor should have to try to put people off just to satisfy the bloodlust of someone who has his dagger out for one specific vendor.

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Krazy Land has 244 members - seeing as it's been up for getting on for a year or thereabouts, it was never getting 60 members a day at any point, so I doubt these potential recruits would have turned into actual ones

So I guess the same question would have to be asked about your other maths

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

Rumour?

A Red victim?

If it's true I can imagine FPMI will be hosting a street party up there in Scotland.

Can't say I'd be too upset myself.

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

Can't find anything elsewhere on the web.

Wishful thinking probably.

Regards,

Dave.

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

Just seen this.

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

There ARE signs to warn them, Dave

What [b]YOU are clamouring for is a sign which blocks the road - or even the road being closed permanently[/b]

And you want this even if the people who have had accidents are lying about them or saying they were worse than they actually were

So now we have you as head of the Bad Analogy College

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

People are NOT lied to. The facts ARE available.

The only thing you don't like is that the facts are not forcibly enhanced in order to damage Red's business.

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Case 1: Some numpty screwed up on understanding the loan. Again. Allegedly

Case 2: "The Chat"... "smelt a rat"... "swines". Glad you finally found The Philosopher's Stone on this one, Dave. The guy so obviously doesn't have any issues, does he?

Keep bringing 'em on, Dave. What's really funny is how even the most obvious rubbish immediately appeals to you as fact. I bet every crop circle and every light in the sky has you planning a trip to Omicron Persei 8, doesn't it?

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

No, not heard anything.

If it is true, if they are forming a new school then I imagine any existing training will be honoured.

However, I suspect the source you quote is referring to people who are in dispute - and since that was already a problem even if the original company hadn't gone solvent, I can't see it enhancing the situation. Can you?

Don't inflame the sitation, Dave. There is nothing wrong with paying up front - it has many positives, and isn't unique to Red or PassMasters. However, paying up front is always going to be an issue if the company goes bust.

The situation with PassMasters is not the same as with Red, Dave, so keep them apart, eh? PassMasters appears to be simply taking money and not providing anything at all. Effectively going so far as doing a runner (if the stories you hear have any truth to them, of course).

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Dave, there's nothing wrong with buying an Audi TT.

But if you drive the Audi TT like a typical Audi TT driver does, you're likely to end up with points or worse.

Does this make the Audi TT at fault or the person who bought it and used it? As Dean of the Bad Analogy College, no doubt YOU believe it is the car's designer

There is nothing wrong with paying up front. You mostly get the service you paid for and out of the thousands who choose the method, the company they paid up front to doesn't go bust.

If the company DOES go bust your money is at risk. Not completely, since most bankruptcies get bought out and the outstanding commitments honoured. But it is a risk nontheless.

Of course, if someone chooses PAYG they have the associated problem of being "ripped off" for every minute they are training, so 60 hours Part 3 will end up costing them upwards of £2,100 plus exam fees. Three tries at Part 3 will cost them likely £3,500 or more.

Either method suits some people. Only people like you insist on trying to denigrate one method as they push their own