[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

[Wide Dave]

Just for the benefit of anyone considering driving instruction as a career, take a look at the following sites before you even think about committing to anything;

http://www.squidoo.com/driving_instructors
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nnhkyLYbqIY
http://www.transportoffice.gov.uk/crt/drivertrainers/becomingadrivinginstructor/becomingadrivinginstructor.htm

Whatever you do, don't go to the following site, the guy wants £9.95 for a 16 page 'report' that is more than adequately covered on the squidoo website above;

http://www.drivinginstructortraininginfo.com/

Regards,

Wide Dave.

[Wide Dave]

And it might be a good idea to read this too;

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Of course they sing their own praises. As I have explained to you before in order to fill in one of the many large gaps in your knowledge, that's what advertising is all about

When someone makes a mistake or is found wanting, blaming it publicly on Red IS libellous. Mind you, I didn't use it in the sense you have picked up on - it was a throwaway comment

As was the comment about throwing in the towel. I mean, come on, Dave. If you can get away with fabricating the most fantastic stories from every single comment anyone makes, can't I do the same once in a while?

And as if to illustrate your penchant for fabrication and embellishment, you come out with that "vast majority" comment

The vast majority fail - NO MATTER WHO THEY TRAIN WITH. You are deliberately implying that the "vast majority" drop out BECAUSE they are with Red. That is simply untrue or - at the very least - not proven and not supported by any demonstrable facts.

Don't keep going on about loans as if only Red utilises them to allow people to finance their training. The issue is whether these people who can barely walk and chew gum at the same time should even be allowed out unsupervised! A loan is a serious affair, and if they screw it up, well until the law changes it is THEIR fault and no one else's.

Incidentally, I haven't found anything concrete but it does seem that Passmasters has folded. Its website is still up, though, which perhaps suggests something (not sure what - maybe nothing at all). I do know that when Let's Drive went under its site was taken down.

Dave, one thing I can say with absolute certainty here is that knowing what ADIs are like in general, one who has 20 years experience should be taken with no less a pinch of salt than all the rest when he starts making far-reaching and sweeping statements In this one's case, he was stating a fact as if it were a new discovery and trying to make out it was somehow a problem... specifically, somehow Red's problem.

So, no. It doesn't weaken my case. It actually weakens yours, especially when you leap on it like a starving ferret on a pork chop and completely miss the pointlessness of it.

I do wish you'd stop diving in without checking for rocks first Keep banging your head like that is bound to damage your thought processes sooner or later

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

The information IS THERE

If someone takes on a mortgage when their job is at risk, does anyone make a song and dance about it? No.

Similarly, do people willingly lie about their finances in order to get a mortgage or other credit? Yes.

Is there any reason to suggest that the same level of stupidity or dishonesty should be dealt with any differently just because a company called Red is involved? No. (but to you: yes)

One day, you WILL return to Planet Earth, Dave. And the men in white coats will undoubtedly be waiting for you

And, erm, Dave. If someone makes something up, and uses it to denigrate a company, then that IS libel. And your followers here have almost exclusively hidden the fact that they simply changed their minds to denigrate Red.

That's a hell of a lot closer to being libel than it is the Holy Communion you are claiming

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Of course, now we are in recession the question should be "DID anyone make a song and dance".

And before you start getting all technical about mortgages, apply it to catalogues, Currys, Comet, and anywhere else people are likely to tot up credit without there even being a check.

Recently, I started buying online from a clothing company (Jacamo) and was amazed to find out that just by signing up on their website I have a £200 credit account! I only found out when I realised I had to actually make the payment as a separate operation when the goods arrived.

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

If I spoke any crap, Dave, you would obviously be the best person to identify it, being so well acquainted with that skill and for so long

[t1gg3er]

I've been to a 'presentation' at The Instructor College this morning. It felt wrong from the beginning - the guy repeated himself word for word during sentences that were supposed to come across as chatty, not scripted.

The figures he gave re potential earnings were:

42hrs per week instruction @ £24 (franchise with RED) = £1008
Minus costs equating to 14hrs (£336) & supposedly including car, NI, tax, fuel.
Leaves £672 per week in your pocket.

They work on the assumption that you will have 21 pupils all taking 2 hour sessions.

The minimum number of hours tuition you can give is 20 for which they will only charge 4 hours per week for the car instead of the 8 a full timer would pay (even though RED are still paying the same leasing costs for a car that's hardly used)

His pitch indicated that there are more learners than driving schools can handle so you will have a full diary straight away for as many hours as you are available to work.

They don't mention travel time between lessons which at an average of 20 min per session would be another 7hrs per week with 21 people doing 2hrs or could be as much as 14hrs per week doing 42 lessons with different people (not that a newly qualified instructor would be likely to have that many pupils).

They say the average time taken to qualify is 6-9mths although for the fee of £3728 (exc test fees) they'll train you for as long as it takes.

At the end of the pitch the diary came out to book everyone in for their driving assessments. The other 2 people there seemed really enthusiastic & have booked for this afternoon and tomorrow. I said I didn't have my diary with me so couldn't book.

After such a dismal, scripted, too good to be tru sales pitch I came home & gooogled for reviews & this thred is just one of several on various sites warning people off - all similar stories and complaints.

I am still interested in becoming an ADI with a view to moving on to do Fleet Driver Training in the future so will be contacting my son's instructor (he only passed in August) to hear how he went about it & how it really is so I can make a better informed decision.

[Wide Dave]

Hi t1gg3er,

Don't let anything you read on here put you off the job. RHPS and myself tend to polarize our opinions because he has no sense of proportion but it can be a superb job so research it thoroughly as you seem to be doing and then make your decision. Don't necessarily dismiss Red as an option because they do actually train people and if you are willing to put the work in then the set up in your area might be OK for you. I would just want you to be aware of the drawbacks of paying the full fee up front.

I wrote the piece below for someone called Katie some pages back who asked for advice;

[Lady D]

Hi Dave,

totally agree with your last post. Although i had a good experience with RED i appreciate some people on here havent. However its good to point out that ur not discouraging people from wanting to do the job. Its up to every individual how they train and how much effort they put in themselves to get qualified. One thing im sure we all agree on here is that once qaulified the job is great and all the hard work is definately worth it!!

[Wide Dave]

Hi RHPS,

I think you need to read up on libel law. Who says that what a former customer says is true or not? Does that former customer have a reasonable belief in the truth of a statement? Is the statement 'fair comment' given the circumstances? Is a statement given as fact or opinion? You and I have differing opinions. Who is to say which opinion is correct? Because we may both have differing opinions about a company does not mean that one of us is spouting libellous comments and the other one isn't. Nuff said.

We had someone on this thread just recently who thought Red were a bit of a shower. When you actually looked at what HE thought was rough treatment it could be seen that Red were actually not behaving perfectly but were behaving as most DIT companies would. So what he wrote wasn't libel in my humble opinion because he had a reasonable belief at that time that what he said was true and he stated it as his honest opinion. I can't imagine any lawyer advising action in such a case for that reason and quite a few others.

[Wide Dave]

Hi Lady D,

Thanks for the comments.

Regards,

Dave.

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Therre you go, Dave. Jump straight into bed with Tigger without consiering the possibilities

How many more one-post-anti-Red people - likely plants from Krazy red Leader - are you just going to take at face value and without any question. Are they always absolutely right in everything they say simply because they are anti-Red?

Red's franchise gets bandied around as costing anywhere between £230 and £280 a week. Fuel on 42 hours would be around £150. Tax and NI on what's left would amount to another £130. That comes to £510.

This is where we have a dilemma. Is the glass half full or half empty? Do we hate Red and believe ANYTHING or not? Did Tigger mis-hear something? Did the rep make this alleged completely inaccurate statement or did he actually say something slightly different which was misunderstood?

A normal human being would quickly be able to do a mental calculation and work out that on an income of £1,000, with a franchise of £230, Tax and NI considerations on the balance without accounting for fuel would amount to around £150. That's £380 without fuel!

If we assume Red are being deceitful, they are surely more likely to hide facts instead of just getting them wrong or making them up? Especially so when they are merely reading a "scripted presentation"

See, Dave. Not quite the Holy Revelation you expected. As usual.

Does it not also strike you as odd that someone with one post can jump in as if they are a regular (even though the thread scares a lot of people away), have an already well-developed chip on their shoulder about Red, and make a bunch of accusations in the typical Krazy Red Leader manner?

No doubt Tigger - who after this "scripted presentation" will have nothing at all to do with Red, and in future years will be able to say only that he "went to a presentation" - will not participate any further because he/she has moved on and is more insterested in becoming an ADI than in trashing one of the companies he/she assessed and decided against?

[montyzuma]

hi guys

tigger does not appear to be a sock puppet and has a legit ip address


while free speech and chat is encouraged ( to a certain extent )

can I remind you of the strict trolling rules that jon is enforcing

seconds away

round 57

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Spare me the lecture on libel, Dave. You get yourself in a mess every time you try something like this, so please don't bore me by trying it again

Libel in Law is the publication of defamatory material in permanent form and that includes the Internet. Libel itself is false material that damages a person's repuation.

Not really a lot of clutter in that statement, Dave.

So when some Johnny comes along and makes a bunch of claims which are demonstrably false, you are a lot closer to libel than anything YOU might claim

Just think, Dave. Let's take a typical Klown... he KNOWS his job is at risk. He KNOWS that this means his house is also at risk, as is the widescreen HD TV, and the new kitchen, and the Xbox or Playstation. He LIES ABOUT or IGNORES this risk of job loss in order to obtain a loan for £3.5k (with £7k payable). He KNOWS he is signing a legally binding agreement.

He starts training and there is no problem.

Then he loses his job. Suddenly, Red MISLED him. Red LIED to him. The examples from his photographic memory come thick and fast... even the one about being abducted and having a kidney removed and 6 pints of blood siphoned off. Oooh. And now there are kids - won't someone PURLEEASE think of the children. All because he doesn't want that loan anymore.

So you see, Dave. The nicely balanced scales swing a little more towards 'libel' than they do 'total honesty'

As for Jacamo, what does it matter? Now I know how it works I just pay the bill off. Problem solved TOTALLY.

Oh, wait. I get what you mean. You mean I need to start a Facebook group and start saying bad things about Jacamo, and then become a lunatic on Gumtree arguing with sensible people like me? Got it. I'll think about it

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

I think Krazy Land has got wise to the sock puppet thing, Montyzuma

Getting people from the same group to use their own computers is actually a lot easier than the method AntiRed (Krazy Red Leader) tried before she was banned for obvious fabrication of information - and trying to say that people who were allegedly at opposite ends of the UK really were using the same computer in the same Internet cafe, spookily close to where HER IP was logged

[RotHeissPfefferStreber]

Which reminds me, Dave, while we're on this subject of 'libel'.

Krazy Red Leader - the one who started all this off and who has the Krazy Land Facebook Group to herd all the losers together in one place - used multiple log-ins in order to push her stories.

She was banned for it.

It stands to reason that if even her original story was correct (which is highly doubtful), the subsequent ones from non-existent and made-up people most certainly were not.

Your entire case on this thread is built on THAT foundation, Dave

[Russet Guzzler]

There's a lot more than one Facebook site that's anti RED, Red, but there's no reports of any RED litigation against its detractors...unless you know different, of course

[Wide Dave]

Hi RG, RHPS,

[t1gg3er]

Hi all,

Can I just say that I'm not a 'plant' of any kind. I was made redundant after 12 years with one of the large motoring organisations at the end of July. I'm still looking for work & whilst I appreciate that qualifying as an ADI is no quick fix (planning to qualify over the next 18mths or so), it's something I really want to do. I worked hard for 12 years for my redundancy so am simply being careful who I pay a substantial chunk of it to.

The figures I quoted from the RED sales pitch were not mis-heard. They were written on a flip-chart by the presenter. He worked everything in terms of hours saying that your total costs including tax & NI would equate to 14hrs tuition if giving 42 hours per week.

In my previous role I was responsible for budgets, costings, planning etc... & his figures just didn't ring true hence I came home & googled.

I asked a few questions during the presentation but was very conscious that I didn't like the guy on a personal basis so was careful not to say/ask too much so as not to impact on the other 2 people there - it would be unfair to try to trip him up just because I didn't like him.

Before this presentation the only thing I knew about RED was that I'd seen them advertising on TV. I went in with no pre-conceptions. I also appreciate that many, many people have probably had great experiences with them. I'm definately not anti-RED, just anti-being blatantly fibbed to by one individual in a presentation! They must do something right tho to still be in business.

They did help me indirectly - I'm still keen to qualify so rang the instructor we used for our son this morning & after chatting with him have decided to start by doing part 1 on my own & take it from there.

I'm sorry if my post upset anyone. I was annoyed with the presenter I'd spent 2 hours listening to, felt his figures etc... were wrong, disliked him on a personal basis (subjective, I know) & thought I was doing the sensible thing by checking them out some more before deciding to hand over what, to me, is a huge amount of money.

And to answer another question - the reason I'm a new user on Gumtree is that prior to googling & coming across this thread I didn't know it existed. I will, however he hanging around now I know it's here with a wealth of information and recommendations relating to all sorts.

Oh, and by the way - I'm female & don't appreciate people making assumptions about who or what I am without taking the time to ask the questions directly first. I find that quite arrogant and rude.

Rant over & now climbing back off my hobby horse