No signed inventory? Deductions from your deposit? Illegal!!

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

All,

If you are a tenant in a property and your Landlord is careless enough not to produce an inventory for you to review and sign, please be aware that they will struggle to legally deduct anything from your deposit when you leave.

The law is such that without proving the condition of the property at the start, they will not be able to make deductions at the end. This is because the onus is on the Landlord to prove and justify the deduction rather than on the tenant having to prove that they damaged the property or left it unclean, for example.

If you challenge the deductions in the small claims court, there is a 99% chance that you will recoup all deductions made if a signed inventory is not in place, plus the admin costs that you incur in taking your Landlord through the small claims court.

Bluey

jimjam · Joined: 12 May 2006 Posts: 82

Very good, however, most tenancy agreements at the least will include a clause which states 'you must have the property professionally cleaned when you leave' with no reference to the state at the commencement.
This is legally binding.

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

Yes but the onus on Tenancy Agreements is to have legally binding clauses and I doubt that a request for professional cleaning is valid - it can be challenged as an unfair term.

The presence of a clause in a TA does not make it valid.

For instance, Landlords may stipulate that the tenant is responsible for repairs to the washing machine but if the Landlord provided it in the first place, they are responsible for its upkeep unless they can prove that the tenants broke it through negligence.

No signed inventory=no deductions as the LL cannot prove any changes to the condition of the property and justify the tenants picking up any costs to rectify it.

"You cannot make a tenant have the property "professionally cleaned" even if it says so in the tenancy agreement (potential unfair term)

The check-in and check-out inventories will be the evidence.
... the tenant does not need to prove anything. "

http://www.landlordzone.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=3068

But for the sake of compromise,we could agree that anyone who is having problems with the return of their deposit should seek advice from the free housing advice line run by Shelter?

Their views on the requirement for tenants to professionally clean their properties are

http://england.shelter.org.uk/advice/advice-3003.cfm

"Can I be charged for cleaning?
Tenancy agreements often state that carpets and curtains must be cleaned to a professional standard before the tenant moves out. This does not mean that they have to be as clean or cleaner than when you moved in.

You are only required to clean any items soiled above normal wear and tear. If possible keep records and receipts for any cleaning you do or pay for. "

Pennant The Tenant · Joined: 25 Mar 2006 Posts: 425

signed inventory or no signed inventory if tenants piss around in a property there paying up.

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

The small claims court tends to find in favour of tenants if Landlords can't prove or justify their deductions. It's not up to tenants to prove the deductions are unjustified but up to the Landlord to persuade the judge that they are fair.

Kronenberg has won his case against his landlord who unfairly retained his deposit and the matter is with the bailiffs.

A Landlord can do their best to charge tenants but the absence of a signed inventory which is a key document to prove the condition at the outset and justify any subsequent deductions means the Landlord will probably jeopardise their case.

In my opinion, of course.

jimjam · Joined: 12 May 2006 Posts: 82

Well...'The presence of a clause in an agreement does not make it binding' seems utterly absurd to me! Shocked

It makes much of a TA look pretty pointless. I have researched what you say though and am dismayed to note it is right. Mad

The moral of the story is just make sure whether you are landlord or tenant that you have an inventory. Not one that is drawn up by the landlord or the agent but by an independent inventory clerk. It is worth its weight.

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

Hi JimJam,

I was similarly surprised to find that a signed inventory is such a key document when it comes to determining what a landlord can deduct from a deposit.

It was quite a discovery that its absence often ensures that judgement made from small claims court action instigated by tenants will invariably be found in their favour. But of course, the law demands proof, not opinions, which is why documents and witnesses are important.

I am not sure whether insisting a property is clean at check-out on the Tenancy Agreement is illegal (perhaps) but insisting that professional cleaners undertake it will probably be considered an unfair clause.

To clarify, the presence of a clause in an agreement does not make it binding if it is considered unfair, written in an unclear way or breaches regulations and laws.

Therefore, it is possible to produce TAs that do not breach the above criteria so they are worth the paper they are written on - they are essential for informing the tenants and Landlords of their rights and responsibilities.

But it does protects tenants from Landlords that seek to wriggle out of their responsibilities by making up clauses that suit them - for example, making tenants responsible for repairs that the Landlord should pay for, insisting that they can enter the property without notice, having short notice periods and so on.

It makes sense that Landlords and Letting Agents can't rewrite the laws of the land to suit them just to reduce their outlay and put the onus on the tenant to manage the property on their behalf rather than enjoy it.

I imagine these laws came in because of Rachman, who for the younger and overseas people on this forum, used to set dogs on tenants and get his henchmen to beat them up and evict them with no notice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Rachman

http://www.portowebbo.co.uk/nottinghilltv/revealed7rachman.htm

Bluey

Pennant The Tenant · Joined: 25 Mar 2006 Posts: 425

It would be pretty hard for a tenant to go court and say they moved into a luxury flat with rent of this amount week to find that say a plasma TV wasnt broken by them!

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

It would be pretty hard for a Landlord to go to Court and say their tenant moved into a luxury flat broke a plasma TV IF not listed as a working item on an inventory signed by both parties at the start of the tenancy AND without an invoice by an engineer that confirms it was broken through negligence on the part of the tenant rather than through an electrical or mechanical fault.

No signed inventory=No permitted deductions from the deposit

A signed inventory without proof that an item was directly damaged by a tenant=No permitted deductions from the deposit.

In my opinion...

jimjam · Joined: 12 May 2006 Posts: 82

I love those Rachman stories, driving round 60's London in a shark skin suit with crocodile shoes and a fat cigar Cool

. Amongst his many stories of evicting tenants, apparently he took the stairs out of one house so the tenants couldn't use it. Took the roof off someone elses flat!
Aah the good old days Laughing

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

There are more landlords of his ilk though perhaps they aren't such natty dressers, their methods are slightly more restrained and public bodies take more action against rogue landlords

Landlord stabbed lodger 39 times
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/5360902.stm

'Rogue' landlord's house closed
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/kent/5266404.stm

Rented property seized by council
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/tyne/5161246.stm

Gas death landlord fined £60,000
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/hampshire/4978608.stm

Landlord jailed for mum lock-out
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_west/4835296.stm

Warning for 'hotbunk' landlords
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/wales/north_east/4783490.stm

Immigrants' landlord sent to jailhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/4698062.stm

to name a few...

Pennant The Tenant · Joined: 25 Mar 2006 Posts: 425

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

mindstep · Joined: 24 Dec 2006 Posts: 3 Location: UK Wide

To help in avoiding future problems you can alsways bid for an Inventory Clerk at www.inventoryclerk.net.

Its free to sign up.

angel27 · Joined: 30 Dec 2006 Posts: 3 Location: Sheffield

Hi

I wondered if you could provide me with some advice. I rent a room in a shared house. However, I am due to move out & having problems with the landlord. Not only has he said that he is going to retain my deposit for 30 days after I have left but he has said that money will be deducted for any damage or lack of cleaning to designated areas. As far as I am aware, I haven't damaged anything & have cleaned all the areas assigned to me - plus others!!.

The problem I have is that no inventory was put together when I moved in & therefore cannot prove that I haven't damaged anything. To add to this he continually over the past 8 months blamed me (not to my face) for incidents which have not been my fault (basically he has taken a dislike to me, so anything that happens is directed to me). He has also said that I have to pay the fixed part of the bills for Jan (of which I will only be there for 3 days.

All in all I feel that I am being treated unfairly.

To add to this, our landlord is supposed to be a resident landlord but actually lives in London & only comes to stay here generally at the end of the month when his money is due or when he takes holidays from work. There are four of us in the house - does he not need a licence. We also never receive a receipt for our payments (which are always made in cash). None of the furniture has been tested to comply with fire regs (some of which is probably over 20 years old.

I basically want to know if he is doing anything wrong by keeping my money for 30 days. I am worried that once I leave he will make all manner of excused for keeping all the money i.e. damage, lack of cleaning. Is there anyone that I could get to check the house with me whilst he is there?? With him not being a 'normal' landlord, I am worried that he is able to skirt around any regulations that are in place

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

angel27 · Joined: 30 Dec 2006 Posts: 3 Location: Sheffield

Thanks for your response

Although I feel it was a little rude..... I have addressed all the problems with the landlord but feel that he makes the rules up as he goes along.

He is a very difficult person to live with & so far I have been blamed for all manner of things including mice!!! mice which he noted were there but failed to do anything about. I then saw them & phoned him - his response - go & buy traps etc etc (a responsibility I thought would have been his, seeing as he was the first person to note that they were there in the first place). When the traps didn't work, I contacted him again, telling him that I'd seen more & wanted to call the council in to get rid of them - his response was for me to pay for the council to come out & he then blamed me for the mice being there in the first place yet the mice were attracted to another tenants cupboard where they kept sweets, jelly etc. There are marks on the walls that I have been blamed for but could actually be any one of the tenants. I have been blamed for spills on the carpet from taking drinks upstairs - yet I had to clean spills that another tenant had made. I have been blamed for heating bills going through the roof yet I haven't been the one putting the heating up & yet your making out that I am trying to cause trouble.

You tell me that I shouldn't waste energy 'dobbing' my landlord in, yet when I changed my details for the council tax to this property, he asked me to change my address to another property - maybe a friends as that would mean the rest of teh tenants would need to pay more (as he was claiming a single persons allowance) & you think that this is fair treatment. I pay for my room, yet I was made to feel like I was doing wrong when I was only doing what was right.

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

Once the deposit is sorted to your satisfaction - Shelter will advise you and you've been given a guide to how to kick off a small claims court action which you can do online - then feel free to act to report your landlord for all the grievances you wish.

Contact the council on their council tax hotline to report your suspicions that he may be claiming a single persons allowance (you've no proof but I guess they can check)

Contact the HMRC to report his income from letting his property to report your suspicions that he is not declaring it (you've no proof but I guess they can check)

https://www.taxevasionhotline.co.uk/

Contact the local council environmental health department about the mice - some councils probably make landlords responsible for sorting out pest control issues - check your councils website to see how they deal with mice for private residential properties.

Contact their HMO officer to see if the property should be licensed

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/index.asp?pgid=14329

Landlords are usually responsible for having a valid gas (CORGI) certificate on an annual basis and having fire resistant furniture. Speak to someone at the council about this

http://england.shelter.org.uk/advice/advice-2938.cfm

I am not making out that you are to blame for any of the problems with your landlord who is clearly shifty and difficult and it is clear you feel you are being held responsible for problems caused by other tenants.

However, you did point out that your landlord was away for most of the time yet then express disappointment when he tasked you with the initial solution to the rodent problem - what did you expect - that he would hop back on the train that night to lay bait even though you were aware it was aggravated by the lifestyle of another of his tenants?

Are you aware that tenants/lodgers do have some responsibility towards repairs, even at the level of changing a light or a fuse or unblocking a sink? Are you aware that tenants are responsible for paying for repairs caused by their negligence or accidentally?

No landlord should be expected to foot the bill for spills and damage though clearly he will not be able to determine which one of his live-in lodgers is responsible. Clearly, the landlord is actually experiencing damage to his property above fair wear and tear and is experiencing very high utility bills - there's very little in your stance which seems to understand the aggravation he is feeling or the expense that he is not necessarily required by law to experience.

This forum has discussed the merits of live-in landlords and the consensus is that people don't enjoy them - the landlords only want people in their property for the money and resent their presence. At least if they live out, they are out of their tenants faces for 99% of the time. Lesson learned - I guess you'll now look for accommodation where the landlord lives out.

Your expressed primary concern is the return of your deposit and ensuring there are no unfair deductions from it and you've been given advice about this. As a lodger/consumer, you have the right to walk away from things that you don't like and you've done this with your accommodation so fair enough, I don't blame you.

But you are being as vexacious as possible and it wouldn't do you any harm to admit that your secondary concern is to get revenge on your landlord.

mindstep · Joined: 24 Dec 2006 Posts: 3 Location: UK Wide

Have a look at a letter written by a well known property lawyer Tessa Shepperson on http://tenantdepositscheme.co.uk. She may be able to advise you.

angel27 · Joined: 30 Dec 2006 Posts: 3 Location: Sheffield

revenge is not what I am seeking but to actually protect other tenants. You have taken what I have said completely out of context without knowing the full story but thanks for the information

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

I may have been a bit harsh but my take is both landlords and tenants should always respect the others rights and comply with their legal obligations.

Your landlord sounds horrible but the tenants don't come out of your postings too well either, since you've clearly indicated that they are leaving the place dirty don't realise that they have responsibilities and are lumbering the landlord with high bills.

I do accept the criticism of your landlord but I doubt the tenants are similarly self-critical. I wish you well in getting your deposit back and hope you've found a nice new place.

PENNANT THE TENANT - WHERE ARE YOU??????????? This forum has been missing you. You've not been killed by one of your tenants or been jailed for Rachman-like offences, have you?

Bluey · Community Moderator Joined: 21 Mar 2006 Posts: 5644

Some tenants confuse emotion and a sense of entitlement with the law which is a more neutral and dispassionate process.

Some tenants cite non-existent laws and assume that they are due a level of service that has no basis in law.

Some tenants, because they've never dealt with maintenance issues, have no idea how hard it is to get them resolved in a timely and effective way. For example, they can't understand why when their central heating fails at a peak time of the year, an engineer cannot come out and fix it the same day.

Some tenants have no idea that it is their responsibility to pay for certain repairs, even if it is due to their negligence or accident.

This is my favourite thread about how lop-sided the whole thing can be - the guy squatted back in the property he bailed out of without giving proper notice and is genuinely baffled why his landlord challenged him.

http://forums.gumtree.com/topic8856.html

I don't mean these observations to undermine your grievances which are legitimate but just to demonstrate the lack of perspective on this forum in general.

The law protects your deposit and prosecutes landlords who don't comply with their obligations when it comes to taxes, health and safety and so on so hopefully you can get your issues addressed to your satisfaction.

Pennant The Tenant · Joined: 25 Mar 2006 Posts: 425

all you seem to be doing is moaning about situations you were happy to go along with when living at the property. Now your moving out your trying to see if anything you enjoyed when living there is moooody. The old furniture etc you go on about you were happy to park your arse on when you lived there, now your moving out and your concerned? I'd be concerned before i moved in/when i lived there.

The landlord has your deposit for 30 days so what, if you messed about in the property your gonna pay up, its how the system works, if you dont like the system buy your own place. The whole situation sounds mickey mouse anyway.

My problem with tenants is your always in a hurry to get your deposits back, you always think that when a deduction is made its unfair? why is it always unfair? whats unfair is putting in a brand new oven/hob/fridge/freezers for example and after only 6 months its caked in shite! Its not just bad its a overall piss take and a lack of respect.

garethcthomas · Joined: 31 May 2006 Posts: 29 Location: London

Pennant The Tenant · Joined: 25 Mar 2006 Posts: 425

only a certain tenant could go in a court room, say they stayed in a luxury flat,

while the court would be informed where the apartment is located, average price of properties in the area. The tenant would say they paid xyz amount of rent every month and there plazma tv was broke at the start of the tenancy and they never reported it broken at any point. I would also find it hard to believe that the Tv wasnt checked at least once within the tenancy.